Today, we're diving into a discussion we had with John Baisch, Director of Product Management at Healthwise in Boise, Idaho. Healthwise is a nonprofit organization that delivers educational healthcare content through EHRs and other UIs to empower patients and providers. John discusses how he structured the team at Healthwise, how he instills a positive culture at the company, their approach to build versus buy, and some of the innovative new capabilities that they're in the process of shipping.
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Chris Hoyd: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishoyd/
John Baisch: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-baisch/
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Chris Hoyd (00:08):
Welcome back to Products in Healthtech. Community for healthtech product leaders, byproduct leaders. I'm Chris Hoyd, Director of Products at VYNYL. Today, we're going to dive into a discussion I had with John Baisch, Director of Product Management at Healthwise in Boise, Idaho. Healthwise is a nonprofit organization that delivers educational healthcare content through EHRs and other UIs to empower patients and providers.
Chris Hoyd (00:34):
John and I discussed how he structured the team at Healthwise, how he instills a positive culture at the company, their approach to build versus buy and some of the innovative new capabilities that they're in the process of shipping. So let's jump into that conversation. So John welcome. Can you maybe tell us all a little bit about your story, your background and how you got into your current position?
John Baisch (00:58):
Sure, sure. So you know Chris I'm an old guy. When we talk about product, I've been doing product management since the, probably early 90s and I started off as an engineer. I actually went to tech school, got some certs, worked on microwave relay stations, worked for a publishing company being a tech writer and then moving to Boise and working for a technology company based out of Silicon Valley and working on holographic wafer inspection equipment.
John Baisch (01:33):
But I also have a software background. When I worked for the publishing company, I was a systems manager the back in the days when Novell networks and all that weren't even around and then also getting into some deep semiconductor design. So working on printer controllers and that was my engineering career.
John Baisch (01:52):
But the last company I worked for as an engineer was a company called Spur Products in Boise and we worked on printer controllers and they had nobody in product management. In fact, product management back then was a very early term and it was kind of in its infancy and so they said, "Why don't you take on this position?"
John Baisch (02:11):
So product management back then was kind of a Jack of all trades. It was project management, product management, marketing and all of that. Over the years, I went through a lot of different training and frameworks but was in that company for about six years and then took a job as a software product manager for a large enterprise software company and did that for about 12 years and then went to the startup world.
John Baisch (02:35):
I ran a product team there and a solutions team and also a sales team at the same time and we actually jumped into the healthcare market at that point. We had a solution for helping organizations that work with individuals with developmental disabilities record the progress and just kind of look at their programs and look at longitudinal programs based on that and grew my career in the healthcare space there.
John Baisch (02:59):
But then at the same time being a startup, you have to look at getting traction and we expand into other markets. So oil and gas, agriculture, manufacturing and all different types of areas.
John Baisch (03:14):
But about four years ago, I thought it was time for me to make a jump and Healthwise was a great company that reached out to me. I did some projects back with them back in the early 90s. I came in as a product manager there and I had just some basic healthcare experience. So just working in the mental healthcare space.
John Baisch (03:34):
But our organization actually provides education to the provider, the payer space. So insurance companies, hospital systems and so on and some of the largest systems in the US and in the world. And really built up my competency in the healthcare space just by the school of hard knocks.
John Baisch (03:53):
A couple years ago, I ended up taking over the product management team here and we had a small group and now we've grown to over 10 product managers in the organization. So combination of product owners, product managers and technical product managers. So that's a little bit my background. I know it was a little lengthy but like I said, I'm an old guy.
Chris Hoyd (04:13):
No, that was perfect. Thank you, John. And a very compelling I think, kind of diverse background to help paint a picture of how you got to where you are. So I think product work can be super context specific, right?
Chris Hoyd (04:29):
If it's an early stage company or a more mature company, it might depend on the industry, that might depend on how the organization thinks about how a product department should be structured or how the development process should take place. Can you talk a little bit about, I know you've seen a lot of those different versions, how have you structured it at Healthwise and maybe talk a little bit about why?
John Baisch (04:51):
So that's a great question. So when I first started here, we had just large development teams that worked across multiple different problem spaces. So in the healthcare space, you have point of care. So physicians working directly with patients. In the payer space, insurance companies working with care managers for individuals of chronic conditions. But our product team wasn't really focused around that. It was more so, you've got this product, you've got this product and so on.
John Baisch (05:20):
Over the last couple of years, we created a new organizational structure. In fact, I came out with a new organizational structure with my partner VP of Product in the October, November timeframe. We've changed the organizational structure in January along with some other things we did for the company from a cultural standpoint.
John Baisch (05:40):
But I want product managers to own problem areas and so point of care got a strategic product manager and a technical product manager that leads that space. One for the care management space.
John Baisch (05:52):
And then we also have products that span both markets. So we from three development teams into eight development teams. So we've got squads that include a product manager, a UX designer, a product marketing manager. In some cases, a technical product manager. We're looking at things like integration, APIs. And then a dev manager and then the developers and We made that change in the December timeframe.
John Baisch (06:21):
The teams in January kind of stormed and normed, which was expected and we've done some changes. Shifting of responsibilities between the two, especially in our services end. But we have seen more velocity probably in the last six months than we have in the last four years that I've been with Healthwise and so it's really helped because we get subject matter experts in that space.
John Baisch (06:41):
And paired up with a product marketing manager. If some organizations don't have the flexibility or the funding, they have a product marketing manager. But they really do take a lot of the pressure off the product manager when it comes to working with the account managers, the sales team and so on.
John Baisch (06:56):
They also help the product managers in some degrees, especially if they're new kind of get up to speed with the market. So not all of the product managers that I hired, and I've hired about seven over the last seven months, and not all of them came from the healthcare space. So there's a lot of learning associated with that.
John Baisch (07:15):
But there's also some strategic things that I did when I hired the product managers. Looking at the personality style, what they know and what they don't know and understanding how I can fill those gaps.
Chris Hoyd (07:25):
Very cool. So that's a pretty recent change that you made and it sounds like a massive restructure that has been really impactful for the organization. That's great. I think that represents some of the leading thinking in product right now. That you shouldn't necessarily orient around a UI surface or anything as specific as that but really focus on the problem at hand and build a team around that to solve for. Interesting.
Chris Hoyd (07:50):
So you also touched on I think the importance of healthcare specific knowledge for really unlocking a lot of velocity there. Would you say healthcare is unique as an industry in the amount of background knowledge that requires to be effective?
John Baisch (08:06):
It's unique but that background knowledge, you can get up to speed relatively quickly. I think just using product marketing frameworks or processes to learn, and dig in and have more conversations. We use a combination of different frameworks. I've always been a kind of a pragmatic model person but we don't follow it to the T.
John Baisch (08:27):
But those individuals that may not have come from product management... So I did hire individuals that didn't come from product management. Some were business analysts, some were early in their career working as a director of client services. I brought an individual in from there. I'm hiring him as an associate product manager. But giving them the tools to help them understand how to drill into those problems with clients, you can learn a lot about the market.
John Baisch (08:53):
And then also, Healthwise we're an education provider. So education is pretty important to us. So I have given all of our team a lot of budget for educating themselves in specific areas. So learning the foundations. You're looking at building, working with developers, getting the insights around that and drilling into that. So working depending on the organization and how flexible they are, having those conversations, getting them out in the field.
John Baisch (09:23):
There was that old saying for a pragmatic that says. Nothing happens in the office. Well, it's true. But the last two years have been really difficult because we're in the healthcare space and our clients don't want us to come on site. They're overburdened with patients. They're also overburdened with the lack of velocity I would say in outpatient services or those services like colonoscopies or so on. So now those are all starting to pick up but they're behind. So the healthcare space really changed quite a bit over the last two years.
John Baisch (10:05):
But the nice thing about it is that we've got a lot of great clients that our product team, along with our partners and our sales team and account managers work together. So they learn more about the market.
John Baisch (10:17):
And it's okay to say, "I don't know." Because when they say I don't know, then we can understand where those gaps are. It's really helped our team because I'm not a command and control person. Product managers should have the flexibility to make decisions on their products.
John Baisch (10:33):
But also we want to make sure that they understand that there is an investment there. So what's the market is the value. We do our TAM, Sam, SOM analysis. We also do our secondary and primary research. Our products, all of our content is evidence-based. But also our product team has to be evidence-based.
John Baisch (10:52):
So we've created a whole new product life cycle process for the organization and we have gates. So we have a discovery gate, we have a demonstration or a proof of concept gate, demonstration. And we call it early adopter and generally available. But early adopter would be beta and then GA.
John Baisch (11:11):
But each of those gates, we go through a formal process. We've got templates for the teams that they provide that information so that we can make decisions as leaders but also we're actually there to support them on that.
John Baisch (11:25):
So I always tell our product managers, you have to have tough skin because you don't have as much authority In some cases unless you have the data to support it but you always have the accountability.
Chris Hoyd (11:40):
Yeah, the beauty of product management. So it sounds like the gates as you apply them to kind of new products or maybe new core capabilities. Would you say maybe as a ratio or a percentage like how much of what Healthwise, the product team, is it bringing new products to market or is it refining existing models?
John Baisch (12:03):
That's great question. It's both. So we're always wanting to innovate. We're constantly innovating as an organization. We got a great client installed base but we have competitive pressures.
John Baisch (12:13):
We've been in business for 47 years. We are the cream of the crop with our content. People in the market, in healthcare and so on like our local providers here in town if you go in and you have an appointment, more than likely when you leave if they're giving you any content... That maybe some PT content or if you've got a chronic condition like diabetes or so on, you might get content, you might get videos, you might get anatomy sketches.
John Baisch (12:41):
But as part of that whole process when we think in terms of where we are with the gates and making those decisions, we have new products that we have to modernize. So we want to come out with new capabilities in different areas and we've done that.
John Baisch (12:55):
And we've made some mistakes. Since I've been here, I killed one product within about probably eight months I was in here because if you looked at the numbers, it just wasn't making sense and the market adoption wasn't there as well.
John Baisch (13:08):
We had another solution that we just sunseted this last year and we've also rethought our strategy as an organization. So we've had some organizational change changes here. From a strategic standpoint, that's really helped us.
John Baisch (13:22):
I think one of the most important things is that product really is there as the voice of the market and we're trying to make sure that we're following what those needs are in the market? But also understanding how it impacts our strategic both focus as an organization because we're a nonprofit as well.
John Baisch (13:39):
This is the first nonprofit I've worked for and it's been very interesting because there's different challenges and there's mission based stuff that we do. So we want to help contribute.
John Baisch (13:48):
Our mission here is to help people live their healthiest lives. So for us to do that, there's work that we do that we monetize and then there's work that we do that we want to contribute. So things like contributing to health equity. We've got new solutions in health equity that we want to help provide to those companies that are helping with underserved populations, those that are challenged both either racially or thinking in terms of financially or just health equity itself. So constantly innovating, we have to innovate. You hear all the different leaders in this space, innovate or die, and we eat and breathe that.
Chris Hoyd (14:32):
To parse on something interesting in there. You said you've sunset a couple of products that just didn't have the data, didn't have the numbers. How do you guys think about KPIs internally? Is that an accountability dimension for PMs or is it just...
John Baisch (14:49):
So we use OKRs, so Objectives and Key Results, and we review those quarterly. We're actually talking about doing a little bit of a hybrid balance scorecard model. But we enacted OKRs when I first started here and failed miserably. It was like either you either do roof shots or you do moon shots when you were creating an OKR and I think we did Saturn shots on some of those and we were kidding ourselves on measuring it.
John Baisch (15:18):
So really looking at the data on these key results that we're expecting, how do we measure that? And does it align with the strategy? Does it align with the product? Does align with the market? And going back and doing that validation to make sure that truly we are making a difference and we're moving the needle. So everybody has that like roadmaps.
John Baisch (15:38):
We weren't roadmap heavy when I first started here and now we've got roadmaps that we review on a quarterly basis. We've got our internal roadmaps, our external roadmaps and our teams want to hold us accountable to it.
John Baisch (15:51):
So we use our safe Harbor statements to help us because as we learn, we make modifications and we make modifications to our OKRs. So all this drives right back up to our strategic direction as an organization and then we share that with the organization.
John Baisch (16:06):
So this is the nice thing about Healthwise is that we are very transparent to every employee. So from our building guy, he knows everything that we're doing in our direction as an organization. He could probably state what our direction is and our three or our five initiatives that we have for our fiscal year.
Chris Hoyd (16:28):
Very cool. I want to circle back also to just something you said maybe 10 minutes or so ago along the lines of the changes you made to the product organization. It sounds like they were more just focused on culture generally. I think that's as important as anything especially for a PM role that needs to rely on influence rather than authority, culture's so important. So can you talk a little bit about what you did there?
John Baisch (16:52):
So there's a lot of things that we've done from a cultural standpoint. We want our employees to... This last couple years have been a challenge. We lost a number of employees due to the great retirement but it's not really a great retirement. They're looking for something that... For more money, that might be and that's okay. If we we're looking for something that you know is going to help our family and we're going to make more money, that's great. But Healthwise recognize that.
John Baisch (17:19):
So a lot of the things that the organization did and what we did within our product team really helped build the culture that we have today that our retention... I haven't lost a product manager in the last... It's going to be coming up on a year in September, I think it is. So that's pretty good especially when you've got that many product managers.
John Baisch (17:39):
But some of the things we did, let me just talk about first organizationally. So we went to a four day work week. We started experimenting that in August of last year. The board approved it and finalized that in February.
John Baisch (17:49):
We found that people spending time having those three day work weeks or weekends are absolutely phenomenal. We got a lot more productivity out of the team because they want to protect those three days.
John Baisch (18:03):
Our CEO, Adam Husney actually propose this. We are in a couple of studies right now. We're doing some presentations here locally. We were on NBC just recently because of it. But we started measuring it. So every week we started doing surveys, we started getting, me as a director, getting feedback the productivity but also looking at those OKRs as well to saying, "Are we actually moving or did we just take a day out of productivity that could impact us as an organization to meet our strategic goals?"
John Baisch (18:35):
And we found that it was great. There was a little bit of friction there for a little while and the friction was more so the heightened anxiety because you feel like, "Okay, well, I got to get all this done done in four days?" And we did find that too many meetings. That's when you start doing these things, you start taking eight hours out of someone's week, meetings become more of a burden.
John Baisch (19:00):
So we started looking at how we conduct meetings and the types of meetings. If we can do this offline, we use Teams quite a bit. We make a lot of decisions through Teams, through chat and so on and just reducing the number of meetings that we have with the teams and also carving out focus time.
John Baisch (19:18):
So on my team, they block out focus time on Wednesdays from 8:00 till noon just so they can focus on the things that they need to do and allow their teams to focus on the things that they need to do.
John Baisch (19:31):
From a product management standpoint, we've given more education. So we've added a lot more education. And there's always these concerns in organizations that the more we educate them, then they're going to leave and they're going to find another job. But that four day work week with education, and the flexibility to do the things that they do and if they can get it done in those four days, that's great.
John Baisch (19:51):
People know that they've got to meet their goals and if they work on a Friday, that's on their initiative. We don't demand people to do that or if they want to work over a weekend, they can do that. You can find that they're taking more responsibility in their solutions and helping their teams move forward. So addressing those concerns, those personal concerns and so on.
John Baisch (20:11):
So a lot of changes there in the education piece and also having process. So getting these processes in place so people know what they need to do at what time and what the expectations are. So we're still learning.
John Baisch (20:24):
It also forced us as well to start thinking more about our process, and what do we need to have is more of a standard process, and what are the one-offs that we don't need to have and not try to boil the ocean with everything, with the process.
Chris Hoyd (20:39):
Predictability, transparency, empowerment. It sounds like you're taking the right calculated risk. That's very cool. So you mentioned Teams, which love it or hate it is a useful, I think tool for a lot of teams. I want to ask a very tactical question. What's the software tool stack at Healthwise? You guys use Teams. Do you use Aha! or Jira?
John Baisch (21:05):
So we're actually looking at Aha! but we've used Jira. So Jira was... And before COVID we were Skype. Again, it was a nonprofit. So probably the first couple of months in 2020 is when we migrated to Teams and it was kind of painful for people and over the years Microsoft improved it.
John Baisch (21:28):
We started using Zoom and we'll use Zoom every once in a while for specific things. But we're primarily Teams. And because Microsoft has done so much good work on building out those needs, it's that pressure. It's almost like a startup in a way for Microsoft that all of a sudden you get this MVP out there and people are screaming and they're like, "Dude, I see the commercials but I can only do six Windows and we have meetings where we'll have 30 people in there." So there were a lot of things that we learned.
John Baisch (22:02):
But today Teams is pretty much the norm and the mobile version really helps as well. So at my team, there are only, I think there's only four people that are located in Boise and the rest are all remote and Teams help so much because we can have that asynchronous communication as well.
John Baisch (22:17):
We use Jira for our system. So for doing our epics, our epic of epics, all of our tickets and so on. When we did the changes in the organization going from three major teams and different projects, we're still refining that for the processes with the teams and the expectations because we want the teams to have the autonomy. But we do have some standard structure that we built within Jira for expectations, for building requirements, and user stories and what our dev partners are expecting from us.
John Baisch (22:51):
And then we also use spreadsheets, everybody's still. You can't get away from spreadsheets. Then we all have all of our other tools that we use just to support the organization and Salesforce. We've got Salesforce integrated with all of our accounting systems and Jira as well.
John Baisch (23:09):
So when we get cases that come in from our client services, our implementation engineers, those come directly through just our standard workflow with Jira. And then we've also taken and integrated our contractual systems within Salesforce to send entitlement data over to our solutions. So when a new contract is signed, we send entitlement packets over and subscriptions already set up. So we've done a lot of automation on the back end.
Chris Hoyd (23:36):
So I'm curious how a nonprofit like Healthwise thinks about the age old question of build versus buy for some core functionality that you want to bring in? For a scaling early stage company, it might make sense to build something because you're adding enterprise value and that leads to a certain outcome down the road. But how do you guys think about it?
John Baisch (23:58):
So we look at build buyer a partner. So that's our mantra. When we look at these projects, especially with new applications or if we want to instrumentation. So we use Heap for instrumentation and we use Appcues. There are other things that we're looking at within the organization that I'd have to shoot you if I told you.
John Baisch (24:19):
But the point is that our goal is to optimize the value that we provide to the market at a reasonable cost to our organization. So we're getting decent ROIs. We're not expecting a decent ROI coming out of the gate. But looking at the cost of building it ourselves and maintaining it versus partnering with an organization we've gotten more, probably in the last two years, we've gotten a lot more focused on how we make those decisions.
John Baisch (24:49):
So when I talk about spreadsheets, all the product managers are expected to provide some type of an ROI initially. And we have a process that we go through as part of our assessment process before we bring something into either discovery if it's something major that requires an investment or if it's just a capability that we think we need to bring in the organization and going through an assessment. Looking at the cost, the ongoing maintenance cost.
John Baisch (25:14):
By the way, when you partner or you buy a solution, there is still a cost to your organization because someone has to be there to manage that and what does that look like? For example, if we looked at, like when we look at Heap or Appcues, it's only X amount of dollars a year. Let's just say, for example, it's a 100 bucks to a 100,000 dollars a year.
John Baisch (25:37):
It still requires someone on our end and not an FTE. It might be a half an FTE to continue to maintain that and be the voice of the solution. It might also require us to bring in someone as a full-time FTE to help support it as an organization.
John Baisch (25:52):
Now counter that, if we built it, then all of a sudden what we're doing is we're pulling resources that should be focused on our core capabilities and so we have an opportunity cost there as well. So we look at the cost for development.
John Baisch (26:06):
By the way, we all know that we love our developers but estimating is always been a challenge. You find me somebody that can give me an estimate on a major project of epic and epic solution that is within a 5% or 10% plus or minus estimate, I would buy that. I would buy that engineering team because software is hard. We know that.
John Baisch (26:35):
So when we look at building internally, we have to make a conscious decision to say, "Is this impact on opportunity? Is it taken from our core focus or is it the core focus? What's the investment? What's the long term maintenance on it? What are those hidden costs that we haven't thought about as an organization?"
John Baisch (26:53):
So we go through a list of all finance, our security office. Security sometimes gets overlooked when you're getting close to... "Oh, did we do a security on it?" Our legal expenses and so on. So we look at those very thoughtfully and we spend the time to do the ROI. But we don't spend so much time that we're sitting out there waiting or late to market.
Chris Hoyd (27:19):
Now curious kind of specific to what your team's working on, kind of a two part question. What's something in the last, call it three, four months in the last quarter that your team has shipped, that you're particularly proud of or excited about? And maybe looking forward, what's something that you're eager to get out in the market?
John Baisch (27:38):
So in healthcare it takes a long time for healthcare adoption. So we just announced in the March timeframe, this is the HIMSS Conference. We announced in the March timeframe, a product called Advise for Epic. So it's basically a fire enabled application that's eye frame. So it's smart on FHIR within a hyperspace environment within the HR.
John Baisch (28:04):
It actually recommends content to a clinician that may be working with a patient in an encounter and it recommends... And we have an OKR centered around. That the OKR is that 75% of the time a clinician would pick one of the top three recommended pieces of content for that patient. We are going to GA with that July, the first.
John Baisch (28:27):
In fact, we just had a review meeting today through our product life cycle process for the GA approval and so we do this with the approval of... Well, basically we get approval from our leadership and that comes next week. But we do it with all the teams and make sure that we've addressed all the concerns or areas to say, "Would you support us going to GA on July 1st?"
John Baisch (28:52):
I'm actually really proud of the team. It may not be completely have competitive Parity but it has got some great differentiation, especially with our content in it. I'm really proud because that team... Actually, it crosses five teams. It crosses our administration, our platform team, our API team, our DevOps team and this is on the dev teams. But it has a resounding effect across the organization. So there's probably 70 to 80 people that are involved in the success of that solution across the organization. It's some phase or it's some aspect of it.
Chris Hoyd (29:32):
That sounds incredibly innovative and incredibly cool and having some sense of how difficult it is to essentially ship anything in healthcare, let alone anything that's going to get in front of a clinician or might empower their decision making. That's massive. So that's very cool to hear.
Chris Hoyd (29:53):
So maybe just a last question here. Very broad, macro view. What trends in healthcare and healthtech, whether they apply to Healthwise or not, what are you most interested in? What do you believe in what's? What's going to be exciting in the next couple years?
John Baisch (30:08):
So Chris, I just got back to Boise at one o'clock this morning. I was at the AHIP conference this week in Las Vegas. So the American, or pardon me, American Health Insurance Professionals. So this is for the payer market. So it was a three day conference and there were a number of themes. They had governor [inaudible 00:30:26] that came and spoke, [inaudible 00:30:28] Common spoke.
John Baisch (30:29):
But the theme around it was in the industry there's a lot of disparity between the relationship between payers and providers depending on the situation. Health equity is probably one of the biggest issues that's going on with the industry today especially COVID really amplified this.
John Baisch (30:45):
So from our concern thinking in terms of health equity helping support that, helping support the integration between the payer and the provider to help them have more visibility, a 360 degree view of a patient and mostly with chronic conditions. So that's where a lot of our expenses in the US health industry is.
John Baisch (31:10):
We spend more money for healthcare probably than any other country in the world and it's because of the different silos of how we treat our patients. It's no fault of anyone. It's more so how our country has evolved and where we started with, instead of being proactive and helping people live their healthiest lives, we're being reactive. That's how Medicare and CMS came about, that we want to be more active.
John Baisch (31:37):
So helping with those organizations realize their mission and their vision to help get ahead of the game and help us as individuals, and consumers, and patients and members extend our lives. But also be able as individuals to make our own healthcare decisions but have visibility into that. So what's passionate to me is helping everybody, helping our physicians, and our insurance companies, and our health systems and even our technology vendors.
John Baisch (32:11):
So we have got a lot of healthcare startups and you've heard this over the years, 95% of the healthcare startups are probably going to fail and that's just because of the industry. It probably was true because of COVID because there was a lack of traction in this space. But bringing it all together and helping everybody so that we can reduce the cost and the burden of the organization. But just help people across the board live healthier lives. So those are probably the most passionate things for me.
John Baisch (32:40):
From a product standpoint, I want to see us more focused on the disciplines and building more competency. When we talk about product managers, I want us not to be product managers, we need to be product leaders. That is probably the most important. We want us to be passionate about the problem, not passionate about the product.
Chris Hoyd (33:00):
That's just the perfect note to end on. I could never rob you of that perfect punctuation for this conversation John. I really enjoyed chatting with you.
John Baisch (33:07):
You too as well, Chris.
Chris Hoyd (33:09):
Sounds like you've got some really sophisticated stuff underway. It's really cool to hear. Yeah, really enjoyed it. Thanks, John.
John Baisch (33:15):
All right. Thanks, Chris.
Chris Hoyd (33:19):
Thanks so much for joining us today. If you want to connect with us in the future, you can find us on LinkedIn or YouTube or on our website at productinhealthtech.com. If you've got ideas, suggestions, maybe you want to be a guest on a conversation in the future, just shoot us an email. We're at info@productinhealth.com. Thanks.